Pathfinder: Kingmaker Unfairly Punishes You for Romancing Regongar or Octavia

I’ve made the claim before on multiple occasions that Pathfinder: Kingmaker is a great RPG for a number of reasons, and I will damn sure stand by that statement.  And I’ll also stand by the statement I made in an Annual Summary rant that the polyamorous romance that PK’s protagonist can engage in with Regongar and Octavia is well-written, romantic, sincere, and touching.  I genuinely applaud Owlcat Games for their accomplishments with their first Pathfinder RPG--their first RPG, period, even--and I’m looking forward to experiencing this level of storytelling quality in their next Pathfinder title with great excitement.

At the same time, though, it wouldn’t be accurate to say that there’s nothing significantly and distressingly wrong with the love interest situation regarding Regongar and Octavia.  And it would be hypocritical of me to criticize Fire Emblem 16 on its lack of gay romantic equality, and not complain about the same problem afflicting another game just because I happen to like the latter more.  So today, let’s talk about how incredibly shitty it is of Owlcat Games to punish players for romancing Reg or Octavia, rather than Reg and Octavia.

So here’s the deal: male or female, the protagonist of Pathfinder: Kingmaker can engage in a romantic relationship with Regongar, Octavia, or both of them at once.  And if you opt to be involved with them both at once, it actually shapes up to be a really great love story.  I said it best in that Annual Summary, so I’m gonna just quote myself because I’m super lazy:

“Not only is the romance that the Queen/King pursues with both Octavia and Regongar pretty solid on both sides of the relationship, but Pathfinder: Kingmaker manages to make it feel like an authentic case of three people finding one another to be mutual soulmates--Octavia and Regongar’s relationship can function without the protagonist’s presence (thankfully, since there are other romantic options and it wouldn’t be fair to hold these characters’ happiness hostage), but it’s only once the Queen/King gets involved, develops feelings for each of them, that both Octavia and Regongar come to terms with certain aspects of their own relationship by seeing it through the eyes of another who equally loves them. I’m reminded of Aika, Fina, and Vyse from Skies of Arcadia, in that any combination of 2 of them would work very well as a romantic couple, but none of them feel like they’re truly complete in love without both the others. Except whereas SoA’s trio just sort of naturally and almost surely accidentally developed that way and thus the game doesn’t ever overtly confirm (or even recognize) this, Pathfinder: Kingmaker has knowingly created such a situation. And it’s done it quite well!”

But here’s the other side of the coin with Reg and Octavia: if you only want to romance 1 of them, the other will die.

Yeah, for real.  At the end of the game, there comes a time in which you’re separated from all your party members, and things get real hairy for each and every 1 of them.  Depending on how you’ve treated them through the game to that point, they may or may not survive the individual trials that Nerissa has put before them.  Regongar and Octavia share 1 of these trials, and if you haven’t fully earned the trust of either of them, done all you can for him or her to be a friend and leader, then he or she likewise will perish.  But, if you’ve been a true ally and helped them each with their issues, both separate and shared, then both will survive, and rejoin you.

...Unless you romanced one, and not the other.  Then, regardless of all else you may have done for her or him, the un-romanced one is gonna up and croak.*

In and of itself, that’s kind of a lousy thing of Owlcat Games to do.  It’s absolutely true that Regongar and Octavia work best and are at their happiest as a package deal, there’s no denying that.  At the same time, though, I can fully understand and sympathize with a player who clearly finds Octavia more charming than Regongar, and doesn’t really find the aggressive self-esteem issues he brings to a relationship compelling.  And on the flip-side, I can fully understand and sympathize with a player who feels a strong connection to the way Regongar needs an open, understanding heart to help him work through his personal problems and be able to give and receive love on the terms of the one he cares about, not just his own limited ones, and doesn’t really care all that much for Octavia’s outgoing and sassy style.  It is very understandable that a player of Pathfinder: Kingmaker would want to romance 1 and not the other of this duo...and yet most of those players also don’t outright dislike Reg or Octavia enough to actually wish harm on them, so the fact that they’re punished with the death of the one not romanced regardless of any other factors is unfair and dismaying, and it comes across as mean-spirited on Owlcat Games’s part.

That’s honestly bad enough already that I would feel compelled to point out that it’s rotten, but that’s not where this ends.  In fact, I’m far more irritated by the next part.  To me, this is the part where what Owlcat’s done gets really shitty.

See, if you want to play a gay male protagonist in Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Regongar is your only love interest.

This is already annoying, and represents an unfortunate trend in games that include homosexual love interest options: there’s always noticeably more lesbian options than gay male options.  I mentioned the inequity in my recent rant on Fire Emblem 16’s romances, and it’s an unfortunate tradition stretching as far back as the days of Knights of the Old Republic 1, which technically allowed the possibility of a female Revan and Juhani falling in love, but no possibilities of a male Revan and any of the male party members doing so.**  And don’t get me wrong, I’m happy to see multiple options in a game for female characters to fall in love with other women, and I don’t want any less of that--I want substantially more, in fact.  But where possible, I want to see an equal number of options for male characters to fall in love with other men, too.  I mean, within narrative reason, at least.  If, say, Dust from Dust: An Elysian Tail had a gay romantic interest, I wouldn’t demand that the game also include an option for Dust to be a played as a woman, and subsequently able to romance a woman, because DAET is specifically set up as a story to be the personal journey of Dust himself, a character specifically designed to be, among other things, a man, so going to such extremes would be silly and detrimental to the story’s integrity.  But for a game like KotOR1, FE16, or Pathfinder: Kingmaker, in which the game’s entirety, including its love interests, is written around the possibility of its protagonist being of either gender, there’s no defensible reason to have such romantic imbalance.***

It doesn’t even make sense in PK!  Why in the world would Tristian not also be an option for a man to romance, when he’s a love interest for a woman protagonist?  The entirety of Tristian’s romantic subplot is his discovering what non-religious love even is, and how mortals go about it.  The concept of romance and passion are not just new to Tristian, they’re utterly alien to him, a function of mortality that he has to understand and feel from the ground up.  It ain’t like, say, Valerie, who’s a regular human with enough self-experience to know she prefers men.  Tristian is a romantic and sexual tabula rasa, a being who has to actively choose to pursue an understanding of mortal love in order to feel it.  His starting point is one at which romantically loving anyone is a completely foreign concept to him, so the fact that you can inspire and guide him to do so at all should, logically, mean that you can do so as a woman or a man.

But anyway, this case of only a single gay male love interest is especially problematic for Pathfinder: Kingmaker.  You want the queen of the Stolen Lands to be a lesbian?  Cool!  You can have her pursue romance with Octavia, but if you don’t want Regongar to die as a result, the queen has the option to find love with Kalikke and Kanerrah, or, if you’re up for a challenge, with the antagonist Nerissa herself.  Yeah, K+K are DLC characters and Nerissa’s very tricky, so it actually is still a bit of a problem that the most accessible lesbian romance option inevitably leads to another character’s death, but tricky or not, those options are there, at least.  But if you want the king of the Stolen Lands to be a gay man?  Cool!  Octavia is doomed.  Because Regongar is the only romantic option for such, Pathfinder: Kingmaker punishes you for being a homosexual man with the death of 1 of your team members.

And that’s pretty fucking shitty.

Look, as a whole, I applaud Pathfinder: Kingmaker for a variety of reasons, and far from the least of them is the fact that it makes a serious effort to include a polyamorous romance, and in doing so, also provides an opportunity for a player to very distinctly embrace and showcase his or her bisexuality.  That is unequivocally good, and it’s even better that the love story Owlcat Games created for it is of great quality, arguably the best the game has to offer.  And I applaud that they’re forthright about this being an actual polyamorous relationship--a few RPGs like Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4 and Fallout 4 allow for the protagonist to court multiple characters, but only do so by largely having all the main character’s love interests ignore this fact; you’re never gonna see MacCready, Preston, Danse, and Hancock all sit down and discuss the fact that their shared husbando Nate may, in fact, have an addiction problem with man-meat.  That Queen/King x Octavia x Regongar is there, and that Owlcat Games isn’t afraid of the fact that it’s there, is great.

But the the way they handled romancing Octavia or Regongar individually, punishing you with the death of the other no matter what else you’ve done, is just plain wrong, especially so in that it punishes any player who wants to play as a homosexual man.  I’m willing to accept that this was an oversight, rather than a malicious act, but I sincerely hope we don’t see a repeat of a situation like this in the next game.



EDIT, FROM THE WORLD OF TOMORROW: We did not see a repeat of a situation like this in Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous, and Owlcat Games did, in fact, seem to make sure that there would be multiple romantic options of both (main) genders available to a protagonist of either (main) gender.  So while my disapproval and complaints within this rant were and are still, in my view, fully justified, I do want to to make an observable note here that the developer learned from this misstep and corrected their future actions appropriately.

Dear Desna in Elysium do I ever wish that could be said about the average video game company.














* Actually, apparently there IS a very slight work-around for this?  From what I've been able to figure out with the assistance of reader Corelion777, you can sort of trick the game by initiating a polyamorous relationship with Octavia and Regongar, but not following through on it.  The way Corelion777 worked it, he/she got the point that his/her character shacked up with both Octavia and Regongar at the same time, but after that point, he/she only pursued the relationship any further with Octavia, and not Regongar.  As best as we can figure, this sort of tricked the game into thinking the polyamorous romance was still in progress, and thus the game didn't decide to arbitrarily kill off Regongar during the end-game, even though the only actual romance that was followed to its conclusion was with Octavia alone.

This is the only way I've ever heard of getting the game to allow both Reg and Octavia to live through a romance with only 1 of them, so I think it's fair to say that it's a case of gaming the system, not actually an intentional option created by the developers.  So my points in this rant are, I think, still fully valid and justified.  And even if it were a fully premeditated allowance on the part of Owlcat Games, it's still a work-around that requires the player to compromise a monogamous attraction to Regongar or to Octavia, which may be objectionable to how the player views and values Octavia's or Regongar's romance.  Additionally, it may also force a player to compromise the sexuality that the player desires for his/her protagonist, since this workaround puts the protagonist into a situation, early on, of being attracted to both Regongar and Octavia, even though the player may want their protagonist to very distinctly be gay or straight.

So yeah, even if there's a cheat to get around this problem, I think my problems with this situation are no less substantial than they would have been had it truly been, as the developers clearly intended, impossible to romance Octavia or Regongar separately without the other dying.  MAJOR thanks to Corelion777 for letting me know about this, though!


** I say “technically” because a glitch in dialogue flags made this gay Juhani romance very difficult to achieve.  I didn’t even know it was a possibility until over a decade later, in fact.


*** Yes, I know that canonically, regardless of how the player wants it to be, KotOR1’s Revan is meant to be male.  But if anything, that just makes it more questionable that the female version has more romantic autonomy, doesn’t it?

Shadowrun: Hong Kong's Downloadable Content

You know, thinking about it, Indie RPGs like Shadowrun, West of Loathing, and Celestian Tales might represent the few times where a DLC rant of mine might actually make a difference to someone’s purchase decisions.  I mean, a game like Fire Emblem 16 comes out with an add-on, and you don’t need to wait for me to tell you why it’s a load of crap, because there’s already a buttload of Youtubers and what few fools like me remain who actually commit their opinions to text who can tell you all about the subject.  But an Indie game?  Far fewer other resources to compete with.  As long as I can get it out in a kinda-sorta timely manner, a DLC rant from me about an Indie RPG might actually influence a reader.  I could actually make a bit of difference, guys!

Unless I were to do something dumb like play a game’s DLC and then just not bother writing a rant about it for over 5 years.



Shadows of Hong Kong: Purchasing the Extended Edition of Shadowrun: Hong Kong, or purchasing the upgrade to said edition if you already have the game normally, gives you a few little extras for the game, and most notably, a post-game adventure to continue the story after the main plot is all over and done with, called Shadows of Hong Kong.

It’s alright.

See, that’s why making this rant has just continued to be pushed further and further out on my schedule, again and again: I don’t really have much of anything to say about this DLC.  It’s okay.  Fine.  Decent, even.  Nothing worse than that.  And certainly nothing more.

What’s the plot like?  It’s okay.  It’s more of a return to social conflicts, and after the heavy focus on all the supernatural stuff that was Shadowrun: Hong Kong’s primary plot, that’s a positive.  But there’s not really much gravity to this story, either; it’s just sort of there.  Like, if this were an actual tabletop Shadowrun session, this would clearly be 1 of those pre-generated basic adventures that come with the whole kit to give you the fundamentals of the franchise.  There’s nothing wrong with it, but it lacks the personal touch of themes of family and obligation found in Shadowrun: Hong Kong, the underlying questions of anarchy vs. the imprisonment of corporatism and the great focus on community and personal legacies found in Shadowrun: Dragonfall, or the spectacular stories, messages, philosophies, and themes of society and personal connection to be found in the fan-made Calfree Trilogy.  Shadows of Hong Kong is enjoyable, but it doesn’t say much of anything.

What’re the characters like?  Again, they’re okay.  Nothing wrong with Gobbet, Kindly Cheng, Is0bel, and all the rest.  Their character development extends into this new adventure well enough.  But then, most of them weren’t all that compelling to begin with; while Rachter is a very interesting character, and Gaichu and Duncan have their moments, this isn’t a cast with the heart and personal draw that the Shadowrun: Dragonfall crew had.  It’s nice to see more of them, but not to the point that it’s gratifying.

I guess I can express actual discontent with 2 parts of it.  A: It’s an adventure that takes between 6 - 8 hours to play, and is sold for $10, so it’s not a good value of time to money spent.  You know my rule of thumb: unless the quality is truly noteworthy, an add-on should give you an hour per dollar spent on it.  And B: the hook to the whole story relies on an enmity that I don’t think many players really felt towards the antagonist.

See, Shadows of Hong Kong is basically about getting all up in the business of and putting a stop to a corrupt and antagonistic police administrator who was a bit of a pain in the ass to the heroes during the main game.  While corporate masters pull her strings (this is Shadowrun, after all), the story and premise of this DLC seems to stake itself heavily on a player’s having formed a personal enmity toward her during the main campaign, and I just don’t think that happened for a lot of people.  Certainly it didn’t for me.  I disliked her and wouldn’t have said no to seeing her get her comeuppance, but I never picked up on any strong, personal hostility there that demanded a follow-up adventure to give her her due.  Frankly, I had much stronger negative feelings toward that dumbass cop in Shadowrun Returns who you can get canned during the game’s ending.

So that doesn’t really help the DLC’s plot.  While it doesn’t stand out in general, it might have been a little more memorable and gripping had its major villain been as dislikable and revenge-worthy as the developers seemed to assume we’d find her.  As it is, it feels like a story all about finally getting full vengeance on some random mid-boss.

I will say that 1 of the most common complaints I see about this DLC, the ending, didn’t really bother me.  The general consensus seems to be annoyance that the player’s actions ultimately don’t change the way major events regarding Ares’s presence in Hong Kong go down, which I guess is too bad, but on the other hand, Harebrained Schemes is just trying to work within the actual canon of the Shadowrun universe.  I didn’t see such complaints about Shadowrun: Dragonfall’s ending, with the anarchy of Germany falling to corporate invaders regardless of your relevant choices, and that was much the same case--the game’s characters may certainly have made an impact in how things went during such major events, but the overall outcome remains the same.  I also, if you remember, generally liked the personal ending choice offered that allows the protagonist and Duncan to get out of their indentured servitude to Kindly Cheng, and that feels like the more important angle of the ending, anyway.

Anyway, I’ve dragged this out long enough.  Bottom line: Shadows of Hong Kong is fun and engaging enough as you’re playing it, but will leave very little impact on you, and does have a few flaws.  It’s neither long nor good enough to justify the difference between it and the regular edition of the game, but if you see it on sale for, like, 50% or more off, then you could do worse than continue your Shadowrun: Hong Kong adventure with this add-on.  Hell, it’s still in the upper half of DLCs I’ve seen overall--even a strictly middling Shadowrun adventure is still reasonably fun, after all.

General RPG Music Lists 1: Them's Fightin' Chords

So, I've had a couple of readers suggest to me that I make a list rant of some sort for the specific RPG tunes that I particularly love, since I've lauded the genre for its consistent good quality in the musical field, and often mentioned that even bad games can have some really awesome background themes.  Now, of course, a couple of people isn't very many in the objective sense, but for this blog, 2 readers constitutes, like, at least a quarter of my entire readership at any given time (hell, it's probably a fair percentage of the entire user base of Blogger itself), so I figured I'd better put my mind to giving the fans what they were, relative to the microcosm of Thinking Inside the Box, practically battering down my door for.

The trick, of course, is that I know fuck-all about music, would have to keep updating a list of my favorite RPG tunes constantly (which is too much trouble and time for me to want to do), and have a very difficult time ranking individual songs of similar quality over one another even in my own head, let alone in any official sense. But I think I've got a system figured out! I'll just sort them all according to a broad quality spectrum, and not sweat which one is better than which others inside that range. As such, these listings of my favorite RPG songs will sort the songs I love by whether they get a B+, an A-, an A, or a coveted A+. Anything lower than a B+ isn't something I keep for my personal listening, because if you think I'm picky about the games I play then you should see what I'm like about the music I listen to, I don't have to apply any particular knowledge about music to justify my decisions (at least, not as much as I might if I were more specifically ranking), and updating the rant as I play new games and acquire new songs will be very simple.

So, for what I want to be an ongoing series of rants this year, let's kick these things off with a listing of all the kickass Battle music of RPGs! Who doesn't love a good tune to get your blood pumping in such an excited fashion that you'd almost forget that all you're actually doing is selecting options from a stupid menu? The fighting music of RPGs is perhaps the type that's saddled with the most unfair responsibility in the soundtrack, because these things are supposed to make a gameplay process that's almost indistinguishable from the act of looking through folders in a file cabinet seem intense and suspenseful. Say what you will about the responsibilities of sad music to create melancholy out of scenes rendered in 16-bit graphics, or town music to make the monotony of equipment shopping and uncontested breaking-and-entering just to have a 1-sided chat about the local cave system seem pleasant in some way, but I think that RPGs' battle music's expectation of making the least active and engaging gameplay system short of a visual novel give the illusion of being exciting is by far the toughest job handed out to a game's compositions. So let's take a look at the very best the genre has to offer! Here's all the battle music of RPGs that I particularly love.

Note: I do not in any way care about what the actual name of any of these tracks is. I organize the songs I listen to by their function, essentially what I'll remember them for. So if you really love the Legends of Storied Tales's song, "Rushing Breach of Valkyric Splendor (Pull Up Yo Pants And Throw Hands Symphony)", which played during boss fights, then just assume that I call it Legends of Storied Tales Boss Battle, as that's the game of origin and its actual function.

Additional Note: This list will be updated constantly as I play new games and acquire new music. I don't think I'll track the updates; sorry, it's just gonna be too much hassle to do so.



BASIC BATTLE

Among RPG fighting music, the Basic Battle theme has the absolute hardest job of all. Forget boss fights, forget final confrontations, forget climactic event battles: the basic battle theme is expected to get you in the mood for a clash of blades and a struggle of heroism every single time you encounter a normal enemy. These are songs that you will hear, without exaggeration, hundreds of times during a game's course, and they will accompany any non-notable battle no matter how great or small. Generic slimes? Under-powered zombies in an area you're returning to after you've gained 20 levels? Actual, innocent bunny rabbits? It's this song's job to make you feel like this is an intense and/or epic encounter in the heroes' tale each and every time. No wonder so few battle themes make the cut to be here.

Qualification Notes: Must be a generic battle theme. Battle themes specific to certain continents/worlds/whatevers in a game are allowed, as long as they're the generic theme for that area, and that area is a substantial part of the game (Breath of Fire 4 is divided into 2 continents and each has its own basic battle theme, Tales of Symphonia is divided into 2 worlds and each has its own basic battle theme, etc). Similarly, if the music only plays in battles involving a certain character, but that constitutes (or can constitute) a substantial portion of the game's battles, then it counts for this (like Golden Sun 2's Jenna's battle theme). If it's a battle theme only found in 1 of several chapters of the game, though (such as the battle theme for Hollow Bastion in Kingdom Hearts, or certain types of battlefields in Final Fantasy Tactics), or a battle theme for a character that doesn't get played all that much, it doesn't count.

B+
- Breath of Fire 4 Empire Battle
- Golden Sun 2 Jenna Battle
- Lufia 1 Battle
- Omori Pyrefly Forest Battle
- Tales of Symphonia Tethe'alla Battle
- Valkyria Chronicles 1 Battle

A-
- Baten Kaitos 2 Battle
- Final Fantasy Mystic Quest Battle

A
- Final Fantasy 8 Laguna Battle
- Wild Arms 1 Battle

A+
- Xenosaga 1 Battle
This particular song did extra heavy lifting, as, to my recollection, it was the ONLY battle theme in Xenosaga 1 until the very final confrontation, meaning that both regular AND boss battles used this. And yet over the course of hundreds and hundreds of times hearing it, I never once got sick of it. It just has such an elegantly urgent, truly epic power to it, that brought you into the moment of a new, amazing science fiction saga unfolding before your eyes. This is the battle theme that proudly cries that you've taken a first step of combat into a grand tale to come.*


EVENT BATTLE

The Event Battle song is an interesting beast, in that it covers a wide, wide range of possible needs for an RPG, but each tune must itself be extremely specific to the time in which it plays. While every piece of music has at least some intended purpose in a game, the Event Battle song plays only for a particular moment, or small handful of moments, so it can be much more fine-tuned to coordinate to the idea and emotion of that scene. At the same time, its composer has to be particularly careful to make it work just right, because the events this tune plays for are almost always more important than just normal battles, or at least more nuanced.

As such, there's not much of a broad expectation for these tunes: rather, their success and eligibility for my collection is based on whether they're really enjoyable to listen to, and whether they accurately depict and significantly enhance the setting and circumstances they play for.

Note that this is not the same as the Event Boss, which we'll get into further down.

B+
- Deus Ex 1 DuClare Chateau Battle
- Final Fantasy Tactics Snow Battle
- Final Fantasy Tactics Urgent Battle
- Fire Emblem 16 Battle of the Eagle and Lion
- Mass Effect 3 Earth Battle
- Neverwinter Nights 2 Memory Battle
- Pokemon Generation 5 Team Plasma Battle
- Shin Megami Tensei 5 Fionn Battle
- Stella Glow Amatsu Battle

A-
- Final Fantasy 9 Hunt Festival
- Makai Kingdom Battle
- Kingdom Hearts Series Hollow Bastion Battle
- Kingdom Hearts Series Twilight Town Battle
- La Pucelle Tactics Angel Gate
- Legend of Heroes 6-1 Arena Battle
- Suikoden 2 Prologue Attack
- Tales of Berseria Rangetsu Style

A
- Disgaea 1 Celestia Battle
- Legend of Heroes 6-1 Intelligence Division Battle

A+
- Skies of Arcadia Ship Battle
I will be very, very much surprised if I ever, over the course of my life, hear a more perfect, courageous, hearty song of grand battle between ships sailing the high seas (or, in this case, the high breeze). I love Skies of Arcadia's Delphinus as the greatest battleship of all time, and I love this as the greatest theme of battleships engaged in combat of all time.


BOSS BATTLE

Alright, here we go. The Boss Battle is the meat of the musical meal, the entree of fighting themes. Basic Battles can aspire to be exciting, but by simple reasoning the Boss Battle's gotta be a substantial step up; this is the piece that tells the player that shit is being thrown down hard. Yeah, Final Battles and some Event Battles will go harder, but I'd argue that the standard Boss Battle's the more important overall, because more singular tracks should have the helping power of the narrative backing them up and adding power to their scenarios, while the standard Boss Battle tune's often gotta handle the creation of extra tension all by itself--yeah, sometimes a boss battle's against someone important to the story or has a lot of current plot events riding on it, but sometimes it's just a skeleton that's bigger than the rest blocking the party's way, or a tough bounty that the player has engaged with at the time of their own choosing. A Boss Battle song's gotta slap, has to get you leaning forward and breathing heavily as it tells you that this ain't like those other battles you fought on the way here: this is the real deal and shit is going down.

B+
- A Dragon's ReQuest Boss Battle
- Bonds of the Skies Boss Battle
- Breath of Fire 3 Boss Battle
- Dragon Fantasy 2 Boss Battle
- Final Fantasy 7 Boss Battle
- Final Fantasy 8 Boss Battle
- Magic Knight Rayearth RPG Boss Battle
- Pokemon Generation 8 Gym Leader Battle (Could only find extended version of the first part, which is the only part I like)
- Shin Megami Tensei 1 Boss Battle
- Steven Universe: Attack the Light Boss Battle
- Whisper of a Rose Boss Battle
- Ys 1 Boss Battle

A-
- Atelier Iris 1 Boss Battle
- Breath of Fire 4 Boss Battle
- Children of Mana Boss Battle
- Grandia 2 Boss Battle
- Treasure of the Rudras Riza Boss Battle
- Treasure of the Rudras Scion Boss Battle

A
- Fire Emblem 14 Heir of Fates Boss Battle (Could only find extended version)
- Justice Chronicles Boss Battle
- La Pucelle Tactics Boss Battle
- Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha 2 Boss Battle

A+
- Live-A-Live Boss Battle
This is just hardcore awesome. You hear this, and you know that the hero's in a no-holds-barred, fight to the finish against a foe so formidable that you've gotta give everything you've got to even stand a chance. Just love the intensity of this piece.

- Pier Solar and the Great Architects Boss Battle
Dude, this may be the greatest possible fusion of Sega Genesis sound style, Phantasy Star musical aesthetic, and pure, undiluted fucking rockin' out.


EVENT BOSS BATTLE

The Basic and Boss Battles might be the workhorses of the soundtrack, and power to them, but there's no denying that the Event Boss Battle music is where the greatest examples of a composer's talents are most vividly shown. These are tunes played for boss battles of greater importance than the rest, fights that are unique and stirring events worthy of their own accordingly grand and compelling music. Like the Event Battle, this is judged by how well it fits to the circumstances in which it plays, be it a climactic showdown that changes a world's fate or a confrontation with a significant character, and like the Boss Battle, this is judged by just how powerful and pumped, how immersed and excited it can get you, how great a fight it describes to you.

Note: Sometimes this will call the song a character's battle, other times it'll just refer to the character alone. The difference is whether the song only plays when fighting the character (such as Breath of Fire 2's Barubary), or whether it's the character's song as a whole, which includes the fight against them (such as Chrono Trigger's Magus).

B+
- Breath of Fire 2 Barubary Battle
- Breath of Fire 4 Epic Battle
- Final Fantasy 7 Jenova Absolute Battle
- Final Fantasy Series Gilgamesh
- Hololive CouncilrRys RPG Cursed Fauna Battle
- I Am Setsuna Time Judge Battle
- Mother 3 Mecha-Drago Battle
- Omori Pluto Battle
- Phantasy Star 4 Dark Force Battle
- Pokemon Generation 4 Cyrus Battle
- Pokemon Generation 8 Final Mustard Battle
- Pokemon Generation 9 Kieran and Terapagos Battle
- Star Ocean 2 Wise Man Battle
- Suikoden 2 Neclord Battle
- Wild Arms 1 Zed Battle
- Wild Arms 2 Liz and Ard Battle

A-
- Celestian Tales 1 Severin Battle
- Children of Mana Big Boss Battle
- Chrono Trigger Epic Battle
- Final Fantasy 4 Fiend Battle
- Final Fantasy 6 Atma Weapon Battle
- Final Fantasy 7 Jenova Battle
- Golden Sun 1 Saturos Battle
- Hololive CouncilRys RPG Cursed BaeRys Battle
- Hololive CouncilRys RPG Cursed Mumei Battle
- Okage: Shadow King Vampire King Battle
- Omori Space Ex-Boyfriend Battle
- Pokemon Generation 8 Battle Tower Boss Battle
- Pokemon Generation 8 Marnie Battle (If anyone knows a version of this that's exactly the same but without the stupid cheers, I'd be very obliged if you'd share it)
- Pokemon Series Cynthia Battle
- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona Q2 Velvet Room Battle
- Suikoden 2 Luca Blight Battle
- Suikoden 3 Destiny Battle
- Suikoden Tierkreis Fredegund Battle
- Tales of the Abyss God General Battle
- Threads of Fate Doll Master Battle
- Treasure of the Rudras Big Boss Battle
- Undertale Asgore Battle
- Undertale Muffet Battle
- Whisper of a Rose Iron Angel Battle
- Wild Arms 1 Boomerang Flash Battle
- Wild Arms 4 Brionac Battle
- Wild Arms 5 Ice Queen Battle (Link avoids unnecessary intro)
- Wild Arms 5 Persephone Battle

A
- Baten Kaitos 1 Big Boss Battle
- Breath of Fire 5 Big Boss Battle
- Chrono Trigger Magus
- Dark Cloud 1 Dran Battle
- Final Fantasy 10 Final Seymour Battle
- Kingdom Hearts 2 Epic Battle
- Mana Khemia 1 Isolde Battle
- Millennium 5 Gisele Battle (I really liked most parts of this song, but couldn't stand 1 part, so I fiddled around with it to make a version I liked. I don't know whether this really counts, but what the hell, I'm putting it here anyway)
- Pokemon Generation 7 Legendary Pokemon Battle
- Pokemon Generation 7 Red and Blue Battle
- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona Q1 Best Friend Battle
- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona Q1 Zeus Battle
- Tales of Phantasia Big Boss Battle
- Undertale Sans Battle
- Undertale Toriel Battle
- Wild Arms 3 Schroedinger Battle

A+
- Etrian Odyssey 1 M.I.K.E. Battle
A raw, rockin' remake of a battle theme that was already insanely great, the methodical intensity and pressure behind this piece, mixed with just a hint of an industrial aesthetic, combines perfectly with the desperate, brutal clash against the AI M.I.K.E. where every turn that passes counts down that much closer to the deaths of millions. Damn awesome.

- Romancing Saga 1 Big Boss Battle
Dude, RS1's music fucking kicks.

- Romancing Saga 1 Epic Boss Battle
I mean, it seriously does.

- Shin Megami Tensei 4 Series Parting Ways Battle
This battle theme really captures in perfection the battles in which it plays, in which the protagonist is parting ways violently from trusted friends whose consciences cannot let him go any further. You really can hear the emotional, the bittersweet desperation of Nanashi's friends in SMT4-2 as they try to keep him from making a terrible mistake, the pain as they're struck down and resign themselves to their fate...by heavens, this song is so good that it even made me care about Isabeau for a few minutes. There are plastic milk jugs that possess more and greater personality than Isabeau, and this music still managed in SMT4-1 to put regret deep in my heart as I put sword deep in hers. That's not to say that strong writing and narrative placement don't factor in heavily to the power of these battles, but at least half the work is done by the music, and when a scene is so distressing that you might actually feel physically ill afterward, even being just half responsible for that is a wonder. This is a triumph of emotional combat themes, it really is.

- Undertale Undyne the Undying Battle
Yeah, I know, it's heresy to put this at the top even above Sans's fight theme. But screw it, I'm standing by it: this is the greatest battle theme of Undertale, full stop. Soulful, frenzied, heroic, unyielding, intense, this tune does proud the idea of the hero who's been empowered by the entire world's hope and faith.

- Wild Arms 3 Asgard and Janus Battle: I honestly have no idea why I am absolutely in love with this battle theme. I mean, it's very unique, has a good, active pace, and gets the idea across that it's a big battle quite well; it's certainly a good battle song 1 way or another. But up at the very top? I have no explanation. I just know that I sincerely love this tune.


VICTORY

Technically speaking, the actual music played during battle aren't the only fighting songs an RPG typically has.  Victory music is that which follows a successful encounter, typically accompanied by victory poses, confident quips, and sweet, sweet Experience Points being doled out.  Victory music's job is simple--congratulate the player on a job well done, close out the encounter, and typically just be upbeat and confident.

Unfortunately, this traditionally can be done well enough with just a quick little ditty of a few basic, "We did it!" kind of notes as in introduction, and then a loop of similarly celebratory music that fills like 20 - 40 seconds in total.  Which means that while Victory music is functional, it rarely has the opportunity, cause, or motivation to reach the kind of musical heights where you'd actually want to hear it for its own sake.  So there's not much here.  Well, not every nook and cranny of an RPG soundtrack can dazzle.

B+
- The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Boss Battle Victory
Well, since this is the only 1 here, I guess I'll comment on it.  I like how calming and reassuring this tune is--rather than go for the usual, aggressive fanfare, TLoZTP uses its Victory music over bosses to gently calm you back down after the intensity and adrenaline of the boss battle.  It's like a soothing rub-down to release the tension after you've finished a tough task.  Nice and quite effective at what it's going for!

A-

A

A+


FINAL BOSS BATTLE

Being able to maintain interest in normal battles, enhance the mood and significance of major plot events, and create a regular feeling of excitement and tension may make the previous categories more important to an RPG as a whole than the Final Boss Battle's music does...but make no mistake, this last category of fighting music is still a darned important one. Final Boss Battle songs have a major advantage in their corner in that, if anything in a game's narrative is already set up to be epic and engaging, it's most likely gonna be the ultimate clash between the heroes and the antagonist, so really, a Final Boss Battle's job is almost more about just keeping up and not dropping the ball than it is about forwarding the title's aims on its own. Still, the importance of just seeing a game to its proper conclusion shouldn't be understated--falling completely flat at the finish line and/or trying to switch thematic narrative horses right at the finale is how you get baffling, ruinous endings like those to Witch Hunt and Mass Effect 3.

A great Final Boss Battle can be as fierce and high-octane as regular Boss and Event Boss Battle music, but it doesn't have to be. What really makes or breaks the music that accompanies the last fight of a game is whether it feels like a satisfying and emotionally/thematically consistent finale to the adventure. If this is a battle on which the fate of the world rests (as is most often the case in RPGs), then it needs to feel epic as hell. If this is a battle that settles the emotional journey of the protagonist, be that journey 1 of self-discovery, revenge, rediscovery of hope, etc., the music should capture feelings appropriate to that mindset. And so on and so forth--the Final Boss Battle music should be great fighting music, but it should also sound right for the game that's led to it. Which is, honestly, the best advice for anything related to a game's ending, really.

And also, as always, the Final Boss Battle music has to be hella good. So let's see which ones are.

B+
- Ara Fell Final Boss Battle
- Dark Cloud 1 Final Boss Battle
- Evoland 1 Final Boss Battle
- Final Fantasy 5 Final Boss Battle
- Final Fantasy 7 Final Boss Battle 1
- Final Fantasy 8 Final Boss Battle 1
- Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 1 Final Boss Battle 1
- Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days Final Boss Battle
- Steven Universe Save the Light Final Boss Battle
- Super Mario RPG Final Boss Battle 1
- Wild Arms 1 Final Boss Battle

A-
- Chrono Trigger Final Boss Battle 1
- Crimson Shroud Final Boss Battle
- Grandia 2 Final Boss Battle
- Lunar 1 Final Boss Battle
- Shadow Hearts 1 Final Boss Battle
- Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 1 Final Boss Battle (I really liked most parts of this song, but couldn't stand 1 part, so I fiddled around with it to make a version I liked. I don't know whether this really counts, but what the hell, I'm putting it here anyway)
- Symphony of Eternity Final Boss Battle
- Tales of the Abyss Final Boss Battle
- Trials of Mana Final Boss Battle
- Wild Arms 2 Final Boss Battle
- Ys 1 Final Boss Battle

A
- Lunar 2 Final Boss Battle (Link avoids unnecessary intro)
- Mario and Luigi 3 Final Boss Battle
- Radiant Historia Final Boss Battle
- Secret of Mana Final Boss Battle
- Shin Megami Tensei 4-2 Final Boss Battle
- Shin Megami Tensei: Persona Q1 Final Boss Battle
- Undertale Final Boss Battle
- Whisper of a Rose Final Boss Battle (From what I can understand, this is an original composition made freely available to anyone who wants it, which was used by Whisper of a Rose, and several other games. Since WoaR is what I know it from, I just categorize it as such)

A+
- Final Fantasy Mystic Quest Final Boss Battle
I'm pretty sure that this is my favorite battle theme. Not just favorite Final Boss Battle song, I mean favorite of all of them. It's either this, or that Pier Solar and the Great Architects boss theme further up. I don't even think I need to explain this one's score; if you can listen to this thing and not get fucking amped about a climactic, high-paced desperate showdown between good and evil for the fate of everything, then I just don't know what to do with you. This song managed to make the end boss of Final Fantasy Mystic Quest epic. Final Fantasy Mystic Quest!

- The Princess' Heart + Sweet Lily Dreams Final Boss Battle
Similar to Whisper of a Rose's Final Boss Battle, this is an original creation that's freely available for others to use, and Sweet Lily Dreams and The Princess' Heart were 2 RPGs that did so (well, mostly; they took its best part and just looped that (0:56 - 2:46)). Whether you like the whole thing or just the middle section that Roseportal Games uses, there's no denying that this song kicks some serious ass.



NOTE FROM THE FUTURE: Apparently Youtube is extremely unreliable.  If you notice that any of these links are dead, I'd be much obliged if you left a comment to let me know which one(s), and I'll address it as best I can.





* This was before said saga released its second game and it became apparent that Xenosaga had committed to a screaming nose-dive straight into a burning trash can.